Author

Message

Indy

Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:31:21 pm

Indy
Site Admin

Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 2316
Location: Indianapolis, IN

I was wondering what everyone here thinks is the future of US Airways at IND? At one time US had hubs all over the Midwest. Now those are all gone. All of US Airways assets are focused on the far edges of the country with hubs in CLT, PHL, PHX and LAS. I don't know if their DC operation is a hub or just a focus city. But as it stands right now they are pretty much the only carrier without a hub or large focus city in this region of the country. From I-75 to the Rockies US Airways has nothing. But all of their competition does. AA has ORD, STL and DFW. UA has ORD. DL/NW has DTW, CVG, ATL, MEM and IND (for now). FL has ATL. WN has STL and MDW.

US Airways is set up to provide better north/south connections but don't really have a good hub for east/west connections. If DL/NW were to scale back their IND operation would that make this airport a good place for US to build up once again? Unlike the old IND where there wasn't any real possibility for expansion US could expand greatly here. Before they were limited to 10 gates which gave IND absolutely no chance. The expansion possibilities at IND are endless for them. They would also gain a geographic advantage as well as being able to get jets in and out quickly with some of the shortest taxi times in the nation. This will give them fuel savings as well as savings in the form of reduced jet ground time.

Does anyone see this as a possibility or opportunity for US Airways?

Food4Geeks.com - Even Geeks Like To Eat.

Boofer

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:40:44 pm

Boofer
Site Admin

Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 949
Location: Carmel, IN

FL also hubs at MCO. And I wouldn't really call ATL and MCO "in this part of the country." WN doesn't hub, but they have major ops at MDW, STL, BWI, DAL, HOU, LAS, PHX, SNA, and OAK. And unfortunately, I don't see any airline expanding greatly at IND for the foreseeable future. It's all about dollar bills now, and IND just doesn't offer that much profit potential for US or any other airline. Put yourself in the shoes of Doug Parker, the CEO of US Airways. If you're looking to grow your airline after just having been through one of the most gut-wrenching periods of airline history, what are your priorities? I would venture a guess that it would be something like this.

1. Cut and control costs.
2. Expand internationally where possible as these tend to be less-competitive and more profitable routes.
3. Cut and control costs.
4. Maximize your return on assets. This means beefing up existing hubs where possible.
5. Cut and control costs.

If it entered into Doug's mind that he needed to go head to head against all the other airlines with already strong presences in the midwest, and that to do so requried the establishment of a new hub or focus city, then where would you choose to do so? The key is an airport with lots of o&d traffic. And that ain't IND. But I just don't think US is in any position to establish any big new bases. Keep in mind that they consider themselves an LCC - in fact, isn't that their stock ticker now? So for them, their strategy is different, and they don't see themselves competing straight-on with the likes of UA, AA, DL/NW, and CO. They are more likely to emphasize vacation destinations. My guess is that we'll see them starting to allocate resources to high-traffic international vacation destinations, perhaps CUN, LGW, CDG - places like those.

Can I get a peanut crumb with that thimble of Coke?

rw175

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:06:08 am


Member

Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 106
Location:

I've seen several employee newsletters where Doug Parker has been asked similar questions about why US doesn't have a hub in the midwest and how the airline should build one to better compete. He has said each time that the airline has no interest in a midwestern hub because they see no profit potential here. They also already have access to a huge hub at ORD via their codeshare with United, so why do it yourself when your partner can do it for you and you earn part of the cut? I think US Airways at IND will look similar to the way it does now in ten years with nonstops to the hubs (barring LAS for now); focus cities like BOS, DCA, and LGA; and possibly PIT because of the Republic Airlines maintenance base there. The only way I see that changing is if Parker ends up leaving and new leadership comes in with a new strategy and business plan.

Fly RW

Indy

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 03:10:58 pm

Indy
Site Admin

Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 2316
Location: Indianapolis, IN

BTW you can drop PIT from that list. It ends in Jan.

Food4Geeks.com - Even Geeks Like To Eat.

Indy

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:07:40 pm

Indy
Site Admin

Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 2316
Location: Indianapolis, IN

US is going to have to make changes. They might call themselves an LCC but lets be honest. They are a legacy as much today as they were before the merger. US is still US. They are the same hub & spoke airline they were back then.

Parker may have shot down the midwest hub idea but how much of that was while they still had a large PIT operation? Having a midwest hub plus PIT wouldn't have made sense. Right now they have a very bad collection of hubs. PHX is probably their best hub. PHL is a disaster. CLT is heavily over served. There is just not enough O&D to justify that level of service. But what choices do they have along the coast? None really. As bad as it is to have over 500 flights a day out of CLT it would be worse to expand PHL. CLT is the lesser of the evils. From a customer service standpoint CLT would be light years ahead of PHL.

Using UA and ORD would be a terrible idea honestly. Having PHL in the network is a liability enough. The last thing you need is to use another hub that is as bad or worse. ORD cannot support what it has now. A midwest hub isn't going to be profitable if you use ORD. You cannot run one in STL. Too much competition with AA and WN. MKE can't handle it and you are at ORDs mercy when there are delays because you have to basically fly through the ORD air space. I discovered this flying MKE to MCI once. We couldn't leave because of ORD problems.

I'm not saying US should establish something the size of what they have in CLT or PHL. That would be pointless. If NW/DL cuts back service I think this market could support an LCC style hub like what WN operates out of MDW. I see no reason why they couldn't support 100 to 150 flights a day. Though some may call that a focus city more than a hub. There is no better place to connect east/west flights. They have room to expand if needed and they will have the best taxi times in the nation and an airport not prone to delays. The part that makes IND the best east/west hub option is the current lack of service west of the Rockies.

Service to LAX is relatively thin with only 1 year round nonstop flight (NW). We have only 1 or 2 seasonal SFO flights. We have no SAN service. We have no SLC service. We have no PDX service. We have only 1 seasonal SEA flight. So it isn't like US would be trying to compete for remaining seats on heavily served routes. If DL/NW cuts back that would basically leave LAX, SFO and SEA unserved. It would also reduce LAS to only a few WN flights. West of the Rockies would become almost completely unserved.

US has a great deal of service east of IND. It would be easy for them to fill in all the west coast gaps and convert much of the rj service currently between IND and the east coast to mainline and connect those east coast markets to all the west coast markets through IND. It doesn't have to start out as some massive campaign with service to every dot on the map like Reno, NV. But why not service to LAS, LAS, SAN, SFO, PDX, SEA, SLC. Or even places further east where no service currently exists (or will soon not exist) like AUS, SAT and MSY. Its not like they'd be coming in and trying to start Florida service which for now would be pointless. Even if DL/NW pulls out of Florida we still have WN and FL serving it.

Running east/west through IND would not be as big of a challenge as some think. All US would have to do is connect their existing IND-East Coast routes with larger west coast markets that will be either unserved or very lightly served out of IND.

Food4Geeks.com - Even Geeks Like To Eat.

Indy

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:47:38 pm

Indy
Site Admin

Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 2316
Location: Indianapolis, IN

I see the attached route map as possible.

What it contains would be cities served by US as of spring 2009. That would be PHX, LGA, BOS, CLT, PHL, DCA.

It would include the reinstatement of PIT. It would include picking up cities that DL/NW would have dropped along the east coast which would be BDL and RDU. You'd be looking at pretty much competition free service on the east coast.

The west coast would include service to two of their hubs which would be PHX and LAS. Those large markets would only have WN as competition. It would include new service to SAN, SLC, and PDX which are currently unserved. It would include service to what are current DL/NW cities but which would be dropped with the return to hub only flying. That would be the launch of LAX, SFO and SEA. Those would also be competition free. So basically with the exception of PHL and LAS.

So they'd have an LCC style east/west hub that is heavily supported by O&D and virtually free of competition. They'd be able to operate this in an idea geographic location in a facility with extremely short taxi times and reduced delays. It could be a very successful operation provided they take a smart approach and don't try and over develop it. It could also support service to a few other decent markets that will be unserved. That would be places like SAT, AUS and MSY. They won't be splitting O&D with anyone.


doable-usairways.gif
Attached File: doable-usairways.gif
Food4Geeks.com - Even Geeks Like To Eat.

Indy

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:56:17 pm

Indy
Site Admin

Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 2316
Location: Indianapolis, IN

This is what the map could look like with Star codeshare. It includes the UA and CO service. It would increase the value of IND even more.


doable-usairways.gif
Attached File: doable-usairways.gif

doable-usairways2.gif
Attached File: doable-usairways2.gif
Food4Geeks.com - Even Geeks Like To Eat.

rw175

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:14:12 am


Member

Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 106
Location:

In theory it all sounds great, but very unlikely to happen. I have heard Parker say no to the midwest hub idea as recently as a few weeks ago - well after the PIT pulldown. He has absolutely zero interest in having a midwestern hub. They see no value in it whatsoever, and have repeatedly said that they don't see the profit potential. I doubt we're going to see any airline building new hubs within the US anytime soon, especially at airports that cannot support the new flights on purely O/D traffic alone.

Fly RW

Indy

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 03:46:32 pm

Indy
Site Admin

Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 2316
Location: Indianapolis, IN

There are no airports in the US right now that can support their current flight loads on O&D alone. Not a single one. In fact most major hubs like ORD are very heavy on feed. Not as bad as places like CLT, CVG and MEM but they are pretty bad none the less. The destinations I listed would be carried mostly by O&D and competition free which would help in making the hub/focus city profitable.

Food4Geeks.com - Even Geeks Like To Eat.

rw175

Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 04:13:26 pm


Member

Joined: 06 Jan 2007
Posts: 106
Location:

Indy wrote:

There are no airports in the US right now that can support their current flight loads on O&D alone. Not a single one. In fact most major hubs like ORD are very heavy on feed.

Exactly, which is one reason why I don't see any new hubs being built and several existing hubs are being cut. Obviously the airlines aren't going to completely shut down the hubs they already have, but they also aren't going to be building new ones.

Indy wrote:

The destinations I listed would be carried mostly by O&D and competition free which would help in making the hub/focus city profitable.

I just think that if these routes would truly be profitable purely on O&D, an airline would already be flying all of them.

Fly RW

Indyaviationboy

Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 06:10:33 pm


Member

Joined: 21 Dec 2007
Posts: 117
Location: Indianapolis International Baggage Claim

Not as bad as places like CLT, CVG and MEM

Yea, with delta planing to leave, CVG is screwed. That's how CVG makes a profit.


Remote Image

Paintrain

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:20:56 pm


Member

Joined: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 248
Location: Lexington ky

Since NWA is dropping Las would Us Airways start flying there?

Kangerlussuaq

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:28:07 am


Member

Joined: 22 Jun 2009
Posts: 8
Location:

Seeing as US made some significant cut backs at LAS, I don't see them picking it up. I thought NW had some nice load factors. I can, however, see WN picking up an additional daily.

Indy

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 08:51:15 am

Indy
Site Admin

Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 2316
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Actually WN has or will be cutting LAS from 3x to 2x daily.

Food4Geeks.com - Even Geeks Like To Eat.

Forum Index  >  US Airways  >  The Future of US at IND

Pages(s):  1